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Author Topic: Shifty business  (Read 3160 times)

mylittleblackbird

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Shifty business
« on: June 04, 2007, 10:24:25 AM »
This is a cut and paste from another website.  I'm trying to figure out why my damn car wants to shift into O/D with lockup before I'm rolling 20 mph.  I've had two people try and say it was the torque converter.  I don't see how, but I'm about to try a different one as a "just in case" measure.

I'll put all of the info I can from the other forum here.  Maybe we can figure something out.  If we don't, I'm planning on towing the car to the guy that put the trans together and have him help me out in person.  Nothing like personal assistance!

Here it goes:
So this one is for those who need visual to troubleshoot.  Check it out.  I'm chasing down electrical gremlins currently to figure out why the car doesn't want to rev past 3k in manual 1st or 2k in manual 2nd.  On top of that, I'm trying to figure out why my transmission absolutely will NOT shift the way it should.  In the end of the vid, you can watch when I put it in drive.  It doesn't seem like it even shifts, just goes into high gear right away.  It's 15 megs and one minute long.  The CEL is from a P0400 code, EGR Circuit Malfunction.  Could be why I can't rev, but I'm not sure on that one yet.  Let me know what you guys think.


http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y53/Grombola/?action=view&current=100_0016-1.flv


*edit*
For the (not so)complete info on the car.
95 Thunderbird LX 4.6L SOHC
2000 Crown Victoria 4R70W /w extra clutches and an 8 tooth output shaft
2004 Mercury Marauder TC

*edit*
Just so you understand how important it is to me to figure out what's wrong, I actually cried because I haven't been able to fix it.  I really need this ol' girl running.


*edit*
http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y53/Grombola/?action=view&current=100_0018.flv

just a 12 meg video of the car running, showing 30% load value, 20% throttle, and the RPM as it sits idleing in park.  Language warning in this one.





I have a chip to account for the 8 tooth output shaft, and the gears. I also have a speedcal, as well as the proper speedo gear to give me an accurate reading. None of it made any difference. I used two different output shaft sensors, two different vehicle speed sensors, two tunes, two known good eec's, comepletely rewired EEC harness to make sure I had no broken wires anywhere. It's got me stumped! The craziest part is that it shows 30% load at idle, and 20% TPS. It's a new TPS.





The TPS is operated by a blade on the throttle shaft. The old sensor had a bad return spring in so it wouldn't return to 0%. The new one returns to 0%, but still reads 20% throttle. Even at 0% TPS the engine shows 27%-30% load....





It's on it's 2nd EEC, 1st one got fried. This current one is a reman, and so you know, I also tried a 3rd, known good EEC from a friend. It's either in the wiring, or the transmission. What I need to do is hook up some lights to the shift solenoid wires and see if they are being commanded to engage 2nd/3rd/4th, or if it's happening hydraulically. I should note that I can go WOT in manual 1st with the wheels in the air and get to redline, but it doesn't want to. If I actually drive it on the road and hold the throttle at one position, the car bucks around.

When in drive, and the vehicle is rolling, if I pull it down into manual 2nd or manual 1st, it holds whatever gear it was in while in drive and will not downshift until the car is completely stationary. It absolutely has no downshift, under any throttle conditions.

To put out a little more information that may be relevant, the car originally came with a 7 tooth output shaft. The trans in it has an 8 tooth output shaft. The OSS and VSS tell the EEC how fast it's moving. As I think I've said, I've tried two different sensors of each to no avail.

I appreciate all of your guys help. Hopefully between you and the few people I talk to outside of BC, we can get it figured out. 

To any who may think they have something, but aren't sure, fire it at me anyways. Any little thing I could have overlooked. Anything at all is a step further than I'm at now.

I am open to just about any avenue of approach to diagnose and fix this thing. Just don't ask me to get a new car, as that option is out of the question  Mine means too much to me



And this is a recap I think


Alrighty, screw my previous post about PMing me for the nitty gritty, here it is, in all of it's glory.

183k 4.6L SOHC
Race built 4R70W out of a 2k Crown Vic with a modified valvebody plate, late model springs, 8 tooth output shaft, forced tailshaft lube, extra clutches, deep sump pan. The harness has been repinned to the factory spec of the 2k CV so that my EEC can communicate to the trans. I installed new gears at the time I put the transmission in, had a custom chip burned to account for the 8 tooth output shaft, and the new gears. I have tried two OSS's and two VSS's, as well as installed the appropriate gear combined with the speedcal to give my speedo accurate readings. The TC is from a 2004 Mercury Marauder which has been rebuilt by the same guy that did the transmission(transmissions are a side job, he specializes in TC's). I am using the old style MLPS as my car can not use the newer ones. I also have the appropriate EPC/SS/TFT/TCC solenoids.

I have since tried repositioning the MLPS, verified that the valve body is torqued to spec, installed new valve body gaskets, tried two pairs of SS's and one TCC solenoid. I have replaced the EEC with one reman, and also tested it with a known good EEC out of another car. A new TPS, which still reads 20% throttle at 0% throttle.

I read 30% load at idle in park. 3% rich on both banks, an EGR Flow malfunction(P0400), I have TC lockup in 3rd and 4th gear. When I attempt to drive, the car is attempting to go into high gear w/ lockup before it even reaches 20 mph on the speedo. The speedo gear and speed cal made absolutely no difference, nor did the tune, the different sensors, solenoids, etc. All wiring has been double/triple/quadruple checked in all area's that it is relevant. I have one EDIS in the mail to be here Wednesday to try and get an idea if that's part of my problem(rev thing), and I have one new one that I'm hopefully getting in about a week from now.

Manual 1st and manual 2nd work, but as in my earlier video, limit me on revs. No governor is in place, as I CAN get past the limit in manual 1st with the wheels off of the ground. I can not downshift into manual 2nd or 1st when shifting from D, nor do I have any form of "downshift" in D when I go WOT. It hold whatever gear it's in or upshifts. I can buy that I MAYBE pinched the EGR wires, but I can also buy that the EGR valve got crapped up when I had the bare manifolds there.

I have rewired the entire harness for the EEC, one wire at a time, to try and remove any potential breaks. No luck. I'm at a loss here guys. All I have to go off of is a couple things you can recommend. Otherwise, I'm stuck having to get the trans out, or towing the car to have the guy who built the thing look at it. I have an idea on one thing to test that I haven't yet, and that's to see if the computer is commanding the solenoids to turn on/off, or if it's somehow being done hydraulically.





That should be it.  No lets get this damn thing fixed!
I'm not interested in any BS when I ask a question, I just want facts.

J dot Miller

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Re: Shifty business
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2007, 11:31:45 AM »
I am still recovering from Food Poising so please give me a day or so to give your post a good read.  But I will like to see some more info.   :-[

The first video seems like you are hitting the rev limiter?  Can you list the EEC program stuff related to the transmission:  IE shift points and etc?

You are going to see some load no matter what because an automatic is only 70-80% efficient.  The more efficient it is the less load you will see.  Did you correct for the engine size in your EEC program by adjusting displacement:  0.0018271 Lb-Mass/ 1 cyl at sea level?
The 5.4 swap has been called a bad idea, and considered an underpowered considerable waste of time, since 2007.

Nice to see that most donít think that anymore.
Bondfreak13 07/28/09 09:05 PM

rjstat

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Re: Shifty business
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2007, 02:55:11 PM »
Electronic Control System

DESCRIPTION
The Powertrain Control Module (PCM) and its input/output network control the following transmission operations:


shift scheduling
line pressure (shift feel)
torque converter clutch
ENGINE INPUTS
The transmission control is separate from the engine control strategy in the PCM, although some of the input signals are shared. The PCM receives some input signals from engine-related sensors, including:


Mass Air Flow Sensor (MAF).
Engine Coolant Temperature sensor (ECT).
Barometric Pressure sensor (BARO).
These signals provide information to the powertrain control module about the load and climate under which the engine is operating. Some other inputs are based on driver inputs, such as accelerator pedal position, which is related to the powertrain control module by the throttle position sensor (TP). Still other inputs are provided by:


transmission components.
Output Shaft Speed (OSS) sensor.
Transmission Range (TR) sensor (controlled by driver placement of the shift lever).
transmission fluid temperature sensor (TFT).
OUTPUTS (SOLENOIDS)
Using all of these input signals, the powertrain control module can determine when the time and conditions are right for a shift or torque converter clutch application. The PCM can also determine the line pressure needed to optimize shift feel. To accomplish these functions, the PCM controls four electronic solenoids:


two on/off shift solenoids
one pulse-width modulated Torque Converter Clutch (TCC) solenoid for torque converter clutch control or "controlled slip" of the torque converter clutch
an Electronic Pressure Control (EPC) solenoid for line pressure control
DRIVER INPUTS
The powertrain control module receives and sends electrical signals that are used to make the transmission more responsive to driver and vehicle needs. The driver demands are transmitted to the powertrain control module through four components:


Transmission range selector lever-The driver's demand for a particular gear range is translated into an electrical signal for the powertrain control module by the transmission range sensor.
Accelerator pedal - The driver's demand for torque and acceleration are sent mechanically to the throttle body on the engine. A throttle position sensor then translates this mechanical motion into an electrical signal and sends it to the powertrain control module.
Brake pedal - A Brake On/Off (BOO) switch tells the powertrain control module when the brake is applied, indicating the driver demand to disengage the torque converter.
Transmission Control Switch - A momentary contact switch, located on the side of the transmission range selector that allows the driver to manually select three or four speed operation.

Have you checked your EGR tube and the EGR differential pressure switch your vacuum control solenoid has the engine been rebuilt. If it hasn't try running seafoam into the intake though the vacuum line of the brake booster this will help clear out carbon.  Also I had problems where my exhaust system had been causes EGR errors and EGR flows problems so check your cats for blockage. Since this is a 95 Tbird is it an OBII systems or an OBI.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2007, 03:00:16 PM by rjstat »
97 - 4.6L Alpine Green Cougar XR-7 w/ Fiber Concepts Hood, SPC cold air intake, 2.5 SLP Dual Exhaust, Eclipse CD4000 w/ Polk's speakers, Koni Shocks, 11/4" Addco sway bars, and Vogtland more to come.
08 Volvo XC90 loaded.

J dot Miller

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Re: Shifty business
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2007, 07:32:04 PM »
I posted this over the TCCoA looking for help:

Quote from: J.:miller:;984604
This poor guy purchased a transmission from a reattribute supplier and has not been able to get it to work.  He has done everything the supplier asked him to do and it still is not working.

I am going to try to help him but I am still sick from Food Poisoning and my expertise in this topic is limited.  He is in a hurry and it is going to take me a few days to get back to 100%...  So, can anyone shed some light on his tranny woes?  :confused:

http://www.eastcoastrollingthunder.com/smf/index.php?topic=470.0

Any help will be appreciated???  :confused:

Well well...  Instead of help I get this threat from doggie:

Quote from: dirtyd0g;984610
Ok First off since I built the transmission and have offered support over and over. You need to lose the attitude. I have offered him to bring the entire car to me over this issue and have answered every question. He can feel free to send the transmission back to me, but I am confident the electrical problem causing the car to shift to rapidly is not an internal transmission problem. I actually had a thought on this the other day that I was going to get with him about. I don't know why you keep getting involved :moe: I think you just like to stir drama. I have never ignored him or been rude about this, excluding when you stir the :censor: up. You have made more trouble for him than you have helped.
doggie

When are you going to understand???  I am trying to help a friend.  This is not drama, this is about getting the job done and helping people...  This is about helping a guy get his car to work.  That is why ECRT exists!  This is a home for the little guy and honest vendors!!!  Read the bylaws!!!

Maybe I am getting all delusional and I wrote something else???  Someone please let me know if I am "delusional"...   :D He asked a question at this site and I am doing what it takes to help him.  I am sorry that you assume that my simple question exerts a bad attitude but as I said I puked my guts last weekend and am not 100% sure but I see no finger pointing or name calling in my post...  That was not my intent...    :o

Time for the smoke and mirrors to stop...  I have been nice to you since we once done business, even though you are not always the most loyal of people I know you have a family and have showed extreme tolerance.  Out of respect for My good pal :jake: (may he rest in peace) who has pointed this out to me several times, I am holding back.   O0

Your response should have been "I am doing what it takes" or "I know about it and asked him to return it" or "offer some advice".  Instead you make a threat??  Oh soooo foolish you stupid lil puppy :dog:...  Keep pushing and you will visit the Devils Circle!!!   >:D

How about getting back to the topic... :-[
The 5.4 swap has been called a bad idea, and considered an underpowered considerable waste of time, since 2007.

Nice to see that most donít think that anymore.
Bondfreak13 07/28/09 09:05 PM

J dot Miller

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Re: Shifty business
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2007, 07:35:26 PM »
I wonder if it is possible to make a pdf of the EEC program printout?  If you can not I will look up the names of the items I want to see.  Only problem, is that they change at the discretion of the guy who programmed the names in the tables...  Let me know...
 ;)
« Last Edit: June 04, 2007, 09:24:24 PM by J.Miller »
The 5.4 swap has been called a bad idea, and considered an underpowered considerable waste of time, since 2007.

Nice to see that most donít think that anymore.
Bondfreak13 07/28/09 09:05 PM

J dot Miller

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Re: Shifty business
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2007, 10:39:33 AM »
I am feeling a tad better today so here we go... 

:larry: sent me this e-mail.  I assume this is the EDIS you are talking about:

Quote from: CaptainJake
The kid thinks its the EDIS, And so do I , Thing is I sent him one that cuts out at 4200 RPM, so he can swap out, test and if it now goes to 4200, he is in bidness, hasta buy a new one.(not cheap , if I remember correctly). Additionally he may have some MAF issues, so I will send him one I know is good today... (no use to me anyhow)...He actually may have fixed the tranny, and these probs are just old age on thepart of the car....

I hope it works...  O0

Quote from: mylittleblackbird
The CEL is from a P0400 code, EGR Circuit Malfunction.  Could be why I can't rev, but I'm not sure on that one yet.  Let me know what you guys think.

Since you just pulled the transmission I will assume that the P0400 code is either the DPFE hoses are reversed/ damaged or the silicone EGR hose is melted or leaks.  Two common problems with our cars...

Quote from: mylittleblackbird
It's got me stumped! The craziest part is that it shows 30% load at idle, and 20% TPS. It's a new TPS.

The load on my car is adjusted for a 5.4L so it will be different than a 4.6L load calculation.  The lowest load I get at idle is 13.7%, at on time it was 20-25%.  This was after a few years of use.  With a new tight transmission, I can see you having a higher load.  This should drop with wear.  I believe you are ok...

My TPS is typically at 20% too.  I see nothing wrong there.

Quote from: mylittleblackbird
When in drive, and the vehicle is rolling, if I pull it down into manual 2nd or manual 1st, it holds whatever gear it was in while in drive and will not downshift until the car is completely stationary. It absolutely has no downshift, under any throttle conditions.

I wonder if the gear ratio of the transmission is not stock and requires a EEC re-burn for the shift points?  Does the supplier know what gears are inside the transmission?  I remember discussing this with :larry: some time ago...  Humm...  From what I understand he never tested it so he may not know for sure... 

I will make sure that the rev limiter (as KD suggested as a possibility for the rev thing) is off so that it does not kick in.

I think you have SCT software???  If not you can borrow my EEC tuner and try turning off the rev limiter assuming you have a windows 95/ 98 Laptop?  Plus setting up some up and down shift points to see what happens...

Problem is that the EEC tuner does not work with a chip installed...

If the EEC tuner works then a trip to a Dyno shop that knows how to tune 4R70W's is in order?

**EDIT**  But if you have a non-stock gear ratio in the transmission you need to find out exactly what it is.  With this data I can use a spread sheet that will calculate the best shift points for your tranny.

Quote from: mylittleblackbird
3% rich on both banks
Pretty close if you ask me.  This can be made closer with a MAF tune in the EEC.  This usually has to be done in person to be perfected.  I have instructions if you like...

« Last Edit: June 05, 2007, 11:00:07 AM by J.Miller »
The 5.4 swap has been called a bad idea, and considered an underpowered considerable waste of time, since 2007.

Nice to see that most donít think that anymore.
Bondfreak13 07/28/09 09:05 PM

mylittleblackbird

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Re: Shifty business
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2007, 03:32:02 PM »
Also to put out a few things after re-reading what I've put down.

The 04 marauder TC, I BELIEVE, but do not know for certain if it was rebuilt.  I simply ASSume it was by the pretty new weld that was on it.  If not, I don't really care.  The ultimate goal is a functioning vehicle.  I have received e-mail with a possible remedy which I will hopefully be able to take a look at tonight and confirm/deny.

I have an SCT chip installed currently.  I have full faith in the tune being right for the information that was given to the tuner.  If it were some piddly little thing that no one noticed or realized, that's fine, I don't care.  My one and only goal is to make this thing work the way it was intended.

I appreciate any/all input on the subject.

No, it was not re-wired wrong.  That was the first thing that got re-checked.  It has been re-re-re-checked since then as well.
I'm not interested in any BS when I ask a question, I just want facts.

mylittleblackbird

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Re: Shifty business
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2007, 06:23:43 PM »
I've just been to the TCCoA thread, and it just reinforces why I never returned.  It had nothing to do with "The Circle" locking me out of my account options, :censor: them.  It was more to do with the stuck up, snobby :censor:, :censor: sucking, know-it-all pricks that litter the site and tarnish what good could come of it.  I appreciate the help you guys are offering here, and would like to extend my thanks.  It's obvious that the masses at the TCCo :censor: are not interested in helping out others unless it fills their pocket book.  So no offense to the ones not guilty, but :censor: the rest at TCCo :censor:.

I would like to thank the transmission builder for his assistance.  I am going to attempt to check something that he recommended.  It would seem to be a possibility.
I'm not interested in any BS when I ask a question, I just want facts.

mylittleblackbird

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Re: Shifty business
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2007, 09:23:23 PM »
Back on topic now.  I was on the phone with the builder, and we were going over the transmission.  It would seem I requested the 4R75W gearset (forgot that I did since it's been so long ago.  I drank a lot of those memories away I believe)  ...  The solution is simple.  The chip gets mailed out and re-tuned for the changes, and everyone goes home happy.  This whole thing gets chalked down in the history books of "crazy :censor: that's happened", and might be referenced by someone else later down the road.  I do know this much, I can not wait until I am back behind the wheel of her.  It's been too long, so I think I have some catching up to do.  Project: Blitzbird     is back in business!(as soon as the chip gets back)  Thanks for your help and continued support, guys!  I look forward to posting a vid of the next set of twins she leaves(after getting used to her again).  WOOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :happy: :happy: :happy: :happy: :happy: :happy: :happy:
« Last Edit: June 05, 2007, 11:25:02 PM by J.Miller »
I'm not interested in any BS when I ask a question, I just want facts.

J dot Miller

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Re: Shifty business
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2007, 09:26:21 PM »
So I was in the ball park.   8)  Kinda sorta...   :-[  I am glad that it is working out for you.   :D  I am glad the supplier is agreeable...   :)  I hope it does the trick, otherwise we go back to brainstorming...



PS: I am sorry but I think I will have to censor the k's...
« Last Edit: June 05, 2007, 10:11:18 PM by J.Miller »
The 5.4 swap has been called a bad idea, and considered an underpowered considerable waste of time, since 2007.

Nice to see that most donít think that anymore.
Bondfreak13 07/28/09 09:05 PM

J dot Miller

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Re: Shifty business
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2007, 07:10:06 AM »
WOW...  Did you see how ugly thy got over tocca?  They trashed the thread and got it locked.   :'( :'(

I wonder why?    :-X
The 5.4 swap has been called a bad idea, and considered an underpowered considerable waste of time, since 2007.

Nice to see that most donít think that anymore.
Bondfreak13 07/28/09 09:05 PM

mylittleblackbird

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Re: Shifty business
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2007, 08:42:03 AM »
Beats me.  All you did was try to attract more attention to this subject in an effort to help me.  I am sorry that it turned so ugly over there...  I'm sorry that you had to take the brunt of the insults, :miller:.  It was never my intention to get your name tarnished.  Your a great guy in my mind, and the builder is a great guy in my mind as well.  I only hope that the two of you can settle your differences at some point so that everyone can again, proceed to a greater goal.  You're both alright in my mind.  Not intending to insult either one of you.  Please don't take it that way.

The chip is mailing out today.  Hopefully some good results will come.
I'm not interested in any BS when I ask a question, I just want facts.

mylittleblackbird

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Re: Shifty business
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2007, 07:58:26 PM »
Rev issue fixed.  It's just a waiting game now.
I'm not interested in any BS when I ask a question, I just want facts.

rjstat

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Re: Shifty business
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2007, 04:44:23 PM »
Only could J.:miller: could post a simple thread and cause hate and discontent. Keep up the good work :miller:
97 - 4.6L Alpine Green Cougar XR-7 w/ Fiber Concepts Hood, SPC cold air intake, 2.5 SLP Dual Exhaust, Eclipse CD4000 w/ Polk's speakers, Koni Shocks, 11/4" Addco sway bars, and Vogtland more to come.
08 Volvo XC90 loaded.

J dot Miller

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Re: Shifty business
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2007, 10:08:00 PM »
Ha ha!!  I think it is fear...

 :calv:
« Last Edit: June 07, 2007, 10:18:23 PM by J.Miller »
The 5.4 swap has been called a bad idea, and considered an underpowered considerable waste of time, since 2007.

Nice to see that most donít think that anymore.
Bondfreak13 07/28/09 09:05 PM